The free website to help new writers to develop, and to help talented writers get noticed and published Books
   
The Secret? << Return To Main Site

 Welcome to the YouWriteOn Forum

**2012 News Random House & Orion Editors to continue free reviews of YouWriteOn Top Ten Writers each month  - publishers of many of the world's bestselling authors 

YouWriteOn Authors' Hall of Fame Congratulations to our many authors achieving sales and signings successes through  Waterstones, WHSmith and others! View Hall of Fame
     

YouWriteOn Message Board > Literary Forums > The Top Ten Help Search Recent Posts
The Secret?
Page < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Last : 10 > Start New Topic Reply To Topic
Straylight
 21 May 2012, 09:44 #150460 Reply To Post
I have only ever passed up one reading assignment (because I had got what I thought was a terrible review from the author and didn't think I could avoid being biased against them). Perhaps I should start!

As for typos/SPAGS- what if you like to do something that you aren't certain is strictly gramatically correct, but that makes sense to you? In my case it's the trailing hyphen, as I just used at the start of this para. I love them, both to indicate interrupted speech, and as a sort of non-specific break in text. But I keep getting picked up on them! Is this wrong?

Come to think about it, what about the famous POV violation where you dip into different character's thoughts in the same section? Sometimes I worry if I have been indoctrinated to hate them for the sake of it, rather than where there is a genuine problem. So many new writers do it...

James
Skye is unimpressed by the sock monster
youngun
 21 May 2012, 12:18 #150479 Reply To Post
Dear Mr Joyce

Mr Spaggot junior has asked me to write to you following our receipt of your manuscript entitled 'Finnegan's Wake.'

We are sorry to inform you that this does not meet the basic standards of grammar and punctuation required by Mssrs Spaggot and Spaggot to be considered for publication.

May I suggest enrolment in one of the many evening classes now available to those who have been unable to meet the requirements of the Higher Certificate. I know they helped me.

Perhaps you could let us know in due course what you would like us to do with the manuscript. We know of a good local firm of funriture upholsterers who may be able to dispose of it without charge.

Yours sincerely

Cordelia Monkfish
Clerical Assistant
Spaggot & Spaggot
Cordwangler's Passage
E.C.1.
Andrew A
 21 May 2012, 13:56 #150483 Reply To Post
Quote: youngun, Monday, 21 May 2012 12:18
Dear Mr Joyce

Mr Spaggot junior has asked me to write to you following our receipt of your manuscript entitled 'Finnegan's Wake.'

We are sorry to inform you that this does not meet the basic standards of grammar and punctuation required by Mssrs Spaggot and Spaggot to be considered for publication.

May I suggest enrolment in one of the many evening classes now available to those who have been unable to meet the requirements of the Higher Certificate. I know they helped me.

Perhaps you could let us know in due course what you would like us to do with the manuscript. We know of a good local firm of funriture upholsterers who may be able to dispose of it without charge.

Yours sincerely

Cordelia Monkfish
Clerical Assistant
Spaggot & Spaggot
Cordwangler's Passage
E.C.1.

It would be nice to take a look at your work Gunny. I've not read a single posting on YRW that did not contain mistakes or that could not be improved in some way.

notleyab
 21 May 2012, 15:06 #150485 Reply To Post
Quote: Andrew A, Monday, 21 May 2012 13:56


I've not read a single posting on YRW that did not contain mistakes or that could not be improved in some way.



That's true of most published books as well.
Just as there are myriad ways of skinning a cat, so there are of writing.
And after writing a bookfull, the ones the author has picked may not always be the best sounding lines .
Jane Doe
 21 May 2012, 15:51 #150491 Reply To Post
Quote: notleyab, Monday, 21 May 2012 15:06
Quote: Andrew A, Monday, 21 May 2012 13:56


I've not read a single posting on YRW that did not contain mistakes or that could not be improved in some way.



That's true of most published books as well.
Just as there are myriad ways of skinning a cat, so there are of writing.
And after writing a bookfull, the ones the author has picked may not always be the best sounding lines .


And obviously what you post on here is of great importance to all the agents out there, hovering with bated breath over the YWO MB.

My thoughts: submitting or posting a piece of work with repeated and serious SPAG mistakes is simply lazy. However, there are certainly some grammar disciplinarians on here unable to discern between 'bad' grammar and a chosen style of writing.

No, an agent is not going to turn down a great submission because of a few missing commas. But if it's full of errors then they're going to have doubts about your commitment as an author and whether you're someone they want to work with. Why choose an author who can't be arsed and is going to require lots of coaching if there's another writer almost as good who has mastered grammar and presentation. Never forget, there's always another writer.

Coversely, a faultlessly punctuated but dull piece of writing will impress no-one. Superb punctuation does not make a piece of writing great. You can roll a turd in glitter but it's still a turd.

This post was last edited by Jane Doe, 21 May 2012, 15:52
'Always tell the truth. If you can't always tell the truth, don't lie.'
youngun
 21 May 2012, 17:51 #150498 Reply To Post
Quote: Andrew A, Monday, 21 May 2012 13:56

It would be nice to take a look at your work Gunny. I've not read a single posting on YRW that did not contain mistakes or that could not be improved in some way.



Funnily enough, nobody has ever mentioned any of the deficiencies you note when they handed over their cheques for my various published books and other works for radio, TV, etc. However I'll certainly bear in mind your kind offer.
denna
 21 May 2012, 18:03 #150499 Reply To Post
Voice is most important to me when I crit a beginning. A story needs to make an emotional connection with me. If grammar and punctuation are poor, it's going to have an effect on the voice. If I have to keep going back, re-reading sentences because they are awkward, punctuated wrong, or whatever, I can't settle into a story. Balance is needed to help add depth. Dialogue with two stick figures will leave me cold. Purple prose with no dialogue or action will make me yawn and start to skim. What I want from a crit is for people to tell me if they made a connection (of any kind) with my characters, but I still gladly latch onto those who feel more comfortable pointing out where an awkward sentence tripped them up, or a typo. Do I like to hear where people loved a part, or connected with a character? Absolutely. It shows me where it's working, but don't forget to show me where it's not.

Top ten stories are hard to crit only because there is a tendency to start second guessing yourself. How could it land in the top ten if it wasn't good? I try not to check the placing of a story in the charts before I read it because I don't want to be influenced by others. Top ten is hard because it shows up red, alerting the reviewer. I don't like this, but as people have pointed out numerous times, there can be little difference in rating between a top ten story and number 20. One shouldn't be gun shy about telling what you think, regardless of placing. (My opinion) Top ten writers want to get published. We can't help them get there by stroking egos, or hurting feelings, when we see major problems.

The only story I ever got into the top ten was one that wasn't ready for an editor to look at, let alone a publisher. I'd jotted down the beginning chapters to a novel to see if it would catch an eye or two-- and it did, landed me in the top ten for almost a month. I started to feel like I deserved to be there, even though it was only a rough draft piece of writing. Then I got waylaid by two crits. My first thought-- How dare they? Knocked me right out of the coveted spot. I went in and out of the tt for the next month and got enough days to make the best seller list. But that's when reality came crashing back down, thank God. That story was not ready for a pro crit. It wasn't even finished, let alone polished. I put it up to see if I should continue writing it and I think I got my answer. But I no longer wanted the pro crit, not yet. Top ten will f_ _ k with your head if you let it-- either because you are the writer, or only the critter assigned someone else's work. Try not to let it influence you either way and take/or give whatever feedback you can. Voice problems, grammar/punctuation problems. The idea is to get better at writing, not land in the top ten. Or if you do get there, it's because you really are ready.
denna
 21 May 2012, 18:22 #150502 Reply To Post
Quote: Straylight, Monday, 21 May 2012 09:44
I have only ever passed up one reading assignment (because I had got what I thought was a terrible review from the author and didn't think I could avoid being biased against them). Perhaps I should start!

As for typos/SPAGS- what if you like to do something that you aren't certain is strictly gramatically correct, but that makes sense to you? In my case it's the trailing hyphen, as I just used at the start of this para. I love them, both to indicate interrupted speech, and as a sort of non-specific break in text. But I keep getting picked up on them! Is this wrong?

Come to think about it, what about the famous POV violation where you dip into different character's thoughts in the same section? Sometimes I worry if I have been indoctrinated to hate them for the sake of it, rather than where there is a genuine problem. So many new writers do it...

James


I use the dash a lot. I like the longer hesitation it brings when I have a character thinking about something. If everything is working around it, I think people don't focus in on it being out of place. I use fragmented sentences for the same reasons. Who thinks using proper grammar? It depends on how close the narrator is staying to a character's mind on whether it works or not. Point of view jumps will jar a reader right out of a character's head and this is why I don't like multiple points of views within the same block of writing. I lose the emotional connection. I do like another view when a scene break is used however.
Andrew A
 21 May 2012, 19:32 #150504 Reply To Post
Quote: youngun, Monday, 21 May 2012 17:51
Quote: Andrew A, Monday, 21 May 2012 13:56

It would be nice to take a look at your work Gunny. I've not read a single posting on YRW that did not contain mistakes or that could not be improved in some way.



Funnily enough, nobody has ever mentioned any of the deficiencies you note when they handed over their cheques for my various published books and other works for radio, TV, etc. However I'll certainly bear in mind your kind offer.


I would not dream of trying to edit your work, I don’t have the experience. I am interested to know if you proofread your own work or do you pay someone else. I ask because you must be the most experienced writer on YWO and your input will be invaluable to others. I can read my work over and over and miss some hideous boobs because I know what should be there – I see what I want to see. As notleyab points out, you often see errors in published works that have benefited from profession editing, so what is the best approach to take when seeking out all those niggling little errors?

youngun
 22 May 2012, 08:22 #150512 Reply To Post
OK, I’m sure there are people on this site who are just as experienced as me, if not more. So I’m not going to issue any ex cathedra statements, just offer one or two personal observations that may be helpful. I think this whole matter really divides into two stages.

The first is what I would call the creative process of translating an idea into live fiction. It’s this that I think we’re essentially about on this site. I wouldn’t get too hung up about the odd typo at this stage. I’d point out to an author if poor grammar etc was spoiling their whole approach - but personally I’ve found this very rare. What I concentrate on in reviewing is: 1)is there any way this MS can be made to work better in order to achieve what the author is trying to do; 2) what markets might exist for the work.
Now, one thing that has struck me is the different attitudes that some writers may have to revising their work. For example, a screenwriter will not be fazed at being asked to deliver as many as 15-20 rewrites, sometimes more. I’m not saying writers of prose fiction need to do this, only that perhaps there is a lesson there for all of us not to be too ‘copy-proud.’
Before we leave this early magical stage of authoring, perhaps I can make a recommendation. Plotting and Writing Suspense Fiction by Patricia Highsmith is a volume that goes into considerable detail about the germination and development of ideas. I think it also goes well beyond the scope of suspense fiction, just as its author’s books are now rated well beyond the ‘thriller’ category.

The second stage of things for me is really about what happens when the MS goes into the production phase. In traditional publishing, this would include the stages at which galley-proofs (‘galleys’) and final or page-proofs are produced and any final copy-editing and proofreading amendments are made. It’s a while since I took a book through production, so no doubt a lot has changed. But the onus was always to keep changes to a minimum once the pages were set. Not least because contracts often specified that an author was only allowed a certain number of alterations at these final stages – any beyond that number being at the author’s expense!

A final thought. It’s not happened to me yet on YWO. But what if one were to receive a work that was experimental in form – say like early 20th century ‘stream-of-consciousness’ novels or later stuff like Jack Kerouac. Would we seek to apply the rules of SPAG to those? Or would we approach them with an open mind?
Page < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Last : 10 > Add To My Topic Watch List Start New Topic Reply To Topic
Server Time: 19 May 2013, 12:09

Powered by Zarr Forums

5 Database Read(s) - 0.281 seconds

 

Adverts provided by Google and not endorsed by YouWriteOn.com.