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Pouring and poring.
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MJ26
 28 Jun 2011, 11:51 #121784 Reply To Post
This is the opening to Fowler's entry: "cliché means a stereotype; in its literary sense it is a word or phrase whose felicity in a particular context when it was first employed has won it such popularity that it is apt to be used unsuitably and indiscriminately."

I think that puts it very succinctly - 'particular context', suitability and discrimination being the deciding elements when considering whether usage of certain words or phrases could be deemed cliché.

So, as an instance, using the original example of 'poring over a map' (though I prefer 'studied') could be used, and not thought of as a cliché, IF the writer is showing that this time (as opposed to the character's previous less attentive reference(s) to a map) the character is really, properly studying the map with their full attention.

Had to get it right this time. Couldn't screw up. He opened the map, laid it flat on the table, pressed its wrinkles with the edge of his hand, and pored over it, studying every symbol, line and figure ... etc ... etc ...

That's my tuppence worth (groan) anyway. cheers.
AFTER GOYA
The Best of Barcelona Ink
Joe 90
 28 Jun 2011, 12:18 #121785 Reply To Post
Quote: Amber Fox, Monday, 27 Jun 2011 10:40
Should my hero 'pore' over a map, or 'pour' over a map? Both look ridiculous. Which is correct?


My finalish word. Get a satnav and dispose of the whole question.
my website
papa stas
 28 Jun 2011, 12:22 #121786 Reply To Post
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 11:49

BEG TO DIFFER


No need to beg sulcus -

we simply -

differ.

papa
stas ( @ your cliche )

As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!
papa stas
 28 Jun 2011, 12:26 #121787 Reply To Post
Without a doubt
the moment of truth has arrived.

It’s as clear to me
as the writing on the wall.

All the Pearls of wisdom
Can be summed up by saying

Don't do as I do, do as I say.


The Scribner Handbook for Writers (2003) asserts that "clichés are too predictable and too familiar to be interesting," while the editors of Writing: A College Handbook (W. W. Norton, 2000) insist darkly that "using worn-out phrases tells the reader that you have no imagination of your own." Yet some would argue that being interesting is not always the writer's intention--and that it's virtually impossible not to rely on some "worn-out phrases" (itself a worn-out phrase) if we're to be understood when we write.

One person's cliché may well be another's striking figure of speech. As editor Patricia O'Connor observes in Woe Is I (Putnam, 1996), we can’t possibly eliminate all clichés: “It would take a roomful of Shakespeares to replace them with fresh figures of speech, and before long those would become clichés, too.”

papa
stas (bows out of here to get back to his writing)
As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!
notleyab
 28 Jun 2011, 13:45 #121791 Reply To Post
Quote: papa stas, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 12:26
As editor Patricia O'Connor observes in Woe Is I (Putnam, 1996), we can’t possibly eliminate all clichés: “It would take a roomful of Shakespeares to replace them with fresh figures of speech, and before long those would become clichés, too.”

papa
stas (bows out of here to get back to his writing)


I get the feeling BEG TO DIFFER might be secretly working on jusuch an ouevre.
Zuckerberg Shmuckerberg, Starbucks Sucks
sulcus
 28 Jun 2011, 16:24 #121801 Reply To Post
Quote: notleyab, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 13:45
Quote: papa stas, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 12:26
As editor Patricia O'Connor observes in Woe Is I (Putnam, 1996), we can’t possibly eliminate all clichés: “It would take a roomful of Shakespeares to replace them with fresh figures of speech, and before long those would become clichés, too.”

papa
stas (bows out of here to get back to his writing)


I get the feeling BEG TO DIFFER might be secretly working on jusuch an ouevre.


Shakespeare expanded the English language, as did Chaucer, as did the 1st English language bible, not just by introducing new words, but by bringing together words in heretofore unseen combinations. Interesting ones.
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle

"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
notleyab
 28 Jun 2011, 16:30 #121802 Reply To Post
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 16:24
Quote: notleyab, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 13:45
Quote: papa stas, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 12:26
As editor Patricia O'Connor observes in Woe Is I (Putnam, 1996), we can’t possibly eliminate all clichés: “It would take a roomful of Shakespeares to replace them with fresh figures of speech, and before long those would become clichés, too.”

papa
stas (bows out of here to get back to his writing)


I get the feeling BEG TO DIFFER might be secretly working on jusuch an ouevre.


Shakespeare expanded the English language, as did Chaucer, as did the 1st English language bible, not just by introducing new words, but by bringing together words in heretofore unseen combinations. Interesting ones.


Is that a yes?
Zuckerberg Shmuckerberg, Starbucks Sucks
sulcus
 28 Jun 2011, 16:32 #121803 Reply To Post
Quote: papa stas, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 10:06
Quote: kazmojazz, Monday, 27 Jun 2011 15:45


The importance for a story teller - is to use language that his reader knows/understands/comprehends/ etc. and if that includes cliches - then so be it.

It ain't the words ya use to tell a story -

it's the story itself that's paramount IMHO
papa
stas (whose tiring of his own tirade)



It's the difference between those who like landscapes and portraits to those who like Impressionism, abstract expressionism or pop art.

Story is only 1 element of writing fiction, one way to organise your material, to order your voice. And I grant it is the most important element for most fiction authors. But it is not the ONLY one. Voice, language, metaphor, ways of seeing, whatever, each is equally legitimate way to organise your novel around.

For me it's all about the central combination of character voice and metaphor. I'm not terribly interested in story. But I am interested in the words. Words make us just as human (as we try and express ourselves, or even explain ourselves) as our urge to tell a story. I'm actually interested in why we still believe we need to tell stories, especially in novel form, when films & TV do story-telling so much better.
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle

"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
kazmojazz
 28 Jun 2011, 16:44 #121805 Reply To Post
Oi! That wasn't me what said that!

Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 16:32
Quote: papa stas, Tuesday, 28 Jun 2011 10:06
Quote: kazmojazz, Monday, 27 Jun 2011 15:45


The importance for a story teller - is to use language that his reader knows/understands/comprehends/ etc. and if that includes cliches - then so be it.

It ain't the words ya use to tell a story -

it's the story itself that's paramount IMHO
papa
stas (whose tiring of his own tirade)



It's the difference between those who like landscapes and portraits to those who like Impressionism, abstract expressionism or pop art.

Story is only 1 element of writing fiction, one way to organise your material, to order your voice. And I grant it is the most important element for most fiction authors. But it is not the ONLY one. Voice, language, metaphor, ways of seeing, whatever, each is equally legitimate way to organise your novel around.

For me it's all about the central combination of character voice and metaphor. I'm not terribly interested in story. But I am interested in the words. Words make us just as human (as we try and express ourselves, or even explain ourselves) as our urge to tell a story. I'm actually interested in why we still believe we need to tell stories, especially in novel form, when films & TV do story-telling so much better.
This post was last edited by kazmojazz, 28 Jun 2011, 17:09
Warren Peace
 28 Jun 2011, 16:46 #121806 Reply To Post
Fowler is good, but his pedantry is almost a cliché in itself.

I like this, by Frank Whitaker quoted by Partridge in Usage and Abusage:

"Haste encourages them, but more often they spring from mental laziness. I have, however, heard their use in football reports defended on the ground that the public expects them, and would be lost without them."

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