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Steve_H
 01 Sep 2008, 00:35 #43042 Reply To Post
Should writers always try to pare down their writing to the bare minimum?

The tendency to overwrite does need correcting as it can bog down the story and remove tension and pace. What I question is whether we should worry so much about using adverbs and providing detail that adds colour and flavour to the writing but does not directly progress the story.

For example, sometimes it matters that the character 'SLOWLY opened the box'. I appreciate that oftentimes the context makes it clear, but it isn't always so obvious and it might be important to the story to know this piece of information.


datahog
 01 Sep 2008, 00:43 #43043 Reply To Post
Quote: Steve_H, Monday, 1 Sep 2008 00:35
Should writers always try to pare down their writing to the bare minimum?

The tendency to overwrite does need correcting as it can bog down the story and remove tension and pace. What I question is whether we should worry so much about using adverbs and providing detail that adds colour and flavour to the writing but does not directly progress the story.

For example, sometimes it matters that the character 'SLOWLY opened the box'. I appreciate that oftentimes the context makes it clear, but it isn't always so obvious and it might be important to the story to know this piece of information.


Sure, there are all styles of writing, and who is really to say how much description is required to set the scene and how much is too much? If you're going to provide a lot of description, though, you'd better be damned good at it, or you risk boring the reader.

As for adverbs (and adjectives) a lot has been said here about what's wrong with stuffing too many into a sentence or paragraph: it leads to unfocused, hard to digest work.

I think also that the heavy use of adverbs and adjectives is simply lazy writing. Often bland writing too. To use your sentence example, doesn't someone "creaking open the box" imply that the box is being slowly opened while also appealing to an additional sense (hearing), thereby vivifying the moment better?
Bagpuss123
 01 Sep 2008, 16:41 #43088 Reply To Post
Quote: Steve_H, Monday, 1 Sep 2008 00:35
Should writers always try to pare down their writing to the bare minimum?

The tendency to overwrite does need correcting as it can bog down the story and remove tension and pace. What I question is whether we should worry so much about using adverbs and providing detail that adds colour and flavour to the writing but does not directly progress the story.

For example, sometimes it matters that the character 'SLOWLY opened the box'. I appreciate that oftentimes the context makes it clear, but it isn't always so obvious and it might be important to the story to know this piece of information.




Instead of slowly opening the box, maybe the character could prise it open?

tomkeal
 01 Sep 2008, 17:00 #43092 Reply To Post
Quote: Bagpuss123, Monday, 1 Sep 2008 16:41

Instead of slowly opening the box, maybe the character could prise it open?


I think the character should leave the box alone. Who knows what dangerous plot devices may lurk within?

Tom
Cope-Walker
 01 Sep 2008, 22:36 #43109 Reply To Post
I think you should all think outside the box, push the envelope, and hit the ground running.

Copey
datahog
 02 Sep 2008, 00:43 #43113 Reply To Post
Quote: Cope-Walker, Monday, 1 Sep 2008 22:36
I think you should all think outside the box, push the envelope, and hit the ground running.

Copey


Or think outside the envelope, push the ground, and hit the box running.
Chuck Buckner
 02 Sep 2008, 01:06 #43115 Reply To Post
Why is he hesitant about opening the box? Relevant?

I don’t believe someone can creak a box open. It might make a creaking sound as it is opened.

I believe there is always a better way of writing “slowly opened the box.”

I believe there is always a better way of writing anything, including what I just wrote here.
I just sit down and write.
William Carlos Williams

The unflattering reviews are painful for short periods of time;
the badly written ones are deeply, deeply insulting.
That reviewer took no time to really read the book.
Toni Morrison
datahog
 02 Sep 2008, 01:12 #43116 Reply To Post
Quote: Chuck Buckner, Tuesday, 2 Sep 2008 01:06
Why is he hesitant about opening the box? Relevant?

I don’t believe someone can creak a box open. It might make a creaking sound as it is opened.



Admittedly "creaking" a box open is unusual, but I think of it as onomatopoeia. Better to be adventurous with verbs than to be humdrum with adverbs, IMO.
Chronomodra
 02 Sep 2008, 05:01 #43117 Reply To Post
Quote: Steve_H, Monday, 1 Sep 2008 00:35
Should writers always try to pare down their writing to the bare minimum?

The tendency to overwrite does need correcting as it can bog down the story and remove tension and pace. What I question is whether we should worry so much about using adverbs and providing detail that adds colour and flavour to the writing but does not directly progress the story.

For example, sometimes it matters that the character 'SLOWLY opened the box'. I appreciate that oftentimes the context makes it clear, but it isn't always so obvious and it might be important to the story to know this piece of information.




As someone who wrote a 210k monster before he realized what word counts agents expect, I've been paring down to the bare minimum for over a year now. That's what saddens me about today's market, really. In the quest to get my work down to acceptable length, I wonder if I've cut out my voice in the process.
-----------------------------
-Chro
Author of Blades of the Fallen and The Spirit Shifter
And blogger of Journey of the Scribe
PaulE
 02 Sep 2008, 07:11 #43119 Reply To Post
Quote: Chronomodra, Tuesday, 2 Sep 2008 05:01
Quote: Steve_H, Monday, 1 Sep 2008 00:35
Should writers always try to pare down their writing to the bare minimum?

The tendency to overwrite does need correcting as it can bog down the story and remove tension and pace. What I question is whether we should worry so much about using adverbs and providing detail that adds colour and flavour to the writing but does not directly progress the story.

For example, sometimes it matters that the character 'SLOWLY opened the box'. I appreciate that oftentimes the context makes it clear, but it isn't always so obvious and it might be important to the story to know this piece of information.




As someone who wrote a 210k monster before he realized what word counts agents expect, I've been paring down to the bare minimum for over a year now. That's what saddens me about today's market, really. In the quest to get my work down to acceptable length, I wonder if I've cut out my voice in the process.


I have similar concerns.
I put my opening chapters on the site in May. Some people loved it and others didn't. It got to 14th in the charts.
I edited and re-edited and submitted various versions based on comments received. Now, four months later, everyone seems to like (not love) it, and it was recently recommended by Reco.
Net result - it has now reached 14th in the September charts - which is exactly where it started.
Is it any better than it was? - possibly. But those changes might have been made anyway when I edited the finished book.
I have spent months of editing, when I could have been writing, and like you I wonder if in the process I have lost something of what made the book mine.
dogeared
 02 Sep 2008, 07:57 #43121 Reply To Post
There is absolutely nothing wrong in using the occasional adverb.

Some folks might jump on it screaming and frothing because it's what they know how to criticise.

As you suggest, too much detail detracts from the story, and sometimes it just becomes bogged down for the sake of trying to be technically correct (he said wearily).
leighvtwersky
 02 Sep 2008, 08:22 #43122 Reply To Post
I agree the worry is about losing your voice.
It's best to keep an open mind and not end up being dogmatic about these things.
Sometimes it's obvious when an adjective or adverb is not needed, but that may be for more than one reason. Recently while editing I found two unnecessary examples in my own work:
He shook his head slowly and silently
and
He wondered silently. .
Clearly both silentlies are expendable. Laughably.
However, I'm not convinced that he creaked open the box is better than he slowly opened the box. For a start, they don't mean exactly the same thing, plus the box would do the creaking because of some action he did (slowly opened perhaps??) and the whole thing smacks of a desperate attempt to avoid using a perfectly acceptable adverb.
After all he slowly opened the box is pure simple language which is what our subconscious language instinct would have us use to express that concept, and while it may not be lofty poetic prose it still does its job. Adequately.
Depends what style you're aiming for in any particular context.

datahog
 02 Sep 2008, 08:38 #43124 Reply To Post
Quote: leighvtwersky, Tuesday, 2 Sep 2008 08:22
Depends what style you're aiming for in any particular context.


Absolutely. I think the old spice metaphor has never been topped. Adjectives and adverbs are like spices. A dash can be delightful, but you know what happens to the food if you use too much.
tomkeal
 02 Sep 2008, 12:15 #43150 Reply To Post
Quote: datahog, Tuesday, 2 Sep 2008 08:38

Absolutely. I think the old spice metaphor has never been topped. Adjectives and adverbs are like spices. A dash can be delightful, but you know what happens to the food if you use too much.


I'm not sure this is such a good metaphor. After a reckless attempt to make spicy BBQ ribs at the weekend, I know exactly what food with too much spice is like. Namely:

Whereas trying to read a story stuffed full of adverbs is more like:

My suggestion for a replacement: adding water to whisky. A few drops brings out the flavour, too much and your story loses its fire.

OK, I'm sure others can do better than that, but you get the idea...

Tom
NickP
 02 Sep 2008, 12:42 #43154 Reply To Post
I like "he creaked open the box." It employs the reader's senses. The problem with adverbs is often they don't.

But avoiding adverbs can sometimes lead to abominations.
Er...trying to think of an example. Maybe "he squeaked."

But maybe not.
"...the likes of NickP can rant on if they like"

I occasionally rant on at http://amonsterinthemirror.blogspot.com/
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