The free website to help new writers to develop, and to help talented writers get noticed and published Books
   
Jane Austen - Mansfield Park << Return To Main Site

 Welcome to the YouWriteOn Forum

**2012 News Random House & Orion Editors to continue free reviews of YouWriteOn Top Ten Writers each month  - publishers of many of the world's bestselling authors 

YouWriteOn Authors' Hall of Fame Congratulations to our many authors achieving sales and signings successes through  Waterstones, WHSmith and others! View Hall of Fame
     

YouWriteOn Message Board > Literary Forums > NEW - YWO Members Recommend Help Search Recent Posts
Jane Austen - Mansfield Park
Page < 1 2 3 4 5 Last : 6 Start New Topic Reply To Topic
DaiBach
 06 Oct 2011, 05:40 #131645 Reply To Post
Quote: Malcolm, Wednesday, 5 Oct 2011 21:14
Quote: DaiBach, Wednesday, 5 Oct 2011 08:19


And yet, her books still sell. And I am suggesting that many of the people who read/glance at the first pages of the 'slush' pile ask themselves, 'Does this obey the rules?' and if it doesn't they reject it. In that sense it will never get as far as an editor, will it?


And so, I am extremely doubtful of rules being made up at all for writing, and look upon most them with a profound cynicism.


And I am suggesting that the people who read/glance at the first pages of the slush pile ask themselves, "Do I want to keep reading?"

Who do you suppose made up the "rules," and for what purpose? When you read, do you not find that misplaced backstory slows the story, too many adverbs and adjectives weigh down the sentences, too much tell robs the reader of feeling involved? These are basics, having nothing to do with trends and fashion but with making the writing readable and keeping the reader involved. Should we ignore the advice of Stephen King, Kurt Vonnegut, George Orwell and other experienced authors who clearly know how to manage an audience?

Of course every author has to find his own voice and write in his own style, but whenever I hear someone express contempt for the "rules," I suspect that person is making excuses for why he can't get past the slush pile.

You can break all the rules you want, but don't blame the reader when it doesn't work.


Dearest Malcolm, Each writer finds his/her own way. Each writer makes up his/her own rules. Try reading, as you quote him, George Orwell's 'Burma Days' and you will find the POV varies, and quite often, from character to character, and equally as often, he uses 'information dump'.

However, it is still a good book. So, if 'blame' is the word, who do I 'blame'? Nobody, because it is a good and well written book.

As regards the comment about the 'slush pile', well it is true I don't have a book published as yet, although one, and I must say thanks to YWO, is now on an editor's desk, (so past the slush pile), and I do have hopes for it.

I have also written, sold, had produced and broadcast 8 plays for BBC TV.

So, in the context of YWO I don't feel I need to make excuses.

And I am conscious of the fact that some of us have had books published, and, after all the congratulations and back slapping, sales have been somewhere between poor and invisible, and I understand that could just as well happen to me.

Your writing ability, Malcolm, is ill served by your desire to make things 'personal'.
This post was last edited by DaiBach, 06 Oct 2011, 05:43
PaulE
 06 Oct 2011, 10:09 #131680 Reply To Post
I think "rules" do have a place, but they are meant as guidance not prescription - a useful aid in starting to write. But imposed too rigidly they can stifle rather than enhance creativity.

The danger on sites like YWO is that they can (if used negatively or excessively) become an excuse rather than a reason for criticising. Applied too consistently they almost generate a template for what is the perfect recipe for a story/first chapters - when patently there is no such thing.

You don't have to look far to find successful and even great writers who totally ignore one or more of these "rules" - indeed for some it's even part of their style/voice.

Like most things in life a little bit of what's bad can be good, but excess is usually detrimental - even regarding "rules."
AntCity
 06 Oct 2011, 10:16 #131682 Reply To Post
Quote: Lin Lee Liu, Thursday, 6 Oct 2011 03:03
While we're on the subject of Writing Rules:

If DIY publishing is really going to assert itself, it has to stop mimicking other publishing. Exhort authors to take risks in format and in genre. This is the time to do some really new stuff — go big, get nuts, let what’s going on inside the story be as iconoclastic and rebellious as the means by which you produced that story.

- Chuck Wendig, from The Publishing Cart Before The Storytelling Horse.

Don't let anyone tell you what a story is, what it needs to include. As an experiment, write a non-story. It will have a chance of being different.

- Charlie Kaufman, from The Guardian


Yeah!! Punk publishing!


Joe 90
 06 Oct 2011, 10:26 #131684 Reply To Post
Quote: PaulE, Thursday, 6 Oct 2011 10:09
I think "rules" do have a place, but they are meant as guidance not prescription - a useful aid in starting to write. But imposed too rigidly they can stifle rather than enhance creativity.

The danger on sites like YWO is that they can (if used negatively or excessively) become an excuse rather than a reason for criticising. Applied too consistently they almost generate a template for what is the perfect recipe for a story/first chapters - when patently there is no such thing.

You don't have to look far to find successful and even great writers who totally ignore one or more of these "rules" - indeed for some it's even part of their style/voice.

Like most things in life a little bit of what's bad can be good, but excess is usually detrimental - even regarding "rules."


A little gem my music teacher imparted to me when I was doing some composition:

'Break the rules, by all means. But know them and how they apply first.'
my website
Malcolm
 07 Oct 2011, 01:49 #131768 Reply To Post
Quote: DaiBach, Thursday, 6 Oct 2011 05:40


Dearest Malcolm, Each writer finds his/her own way. Each writer makes up his/her own rules. Try reading, as you quote him, George Orwell's 'Burma Days' and you will find the POV varies, and quite often, from character to character, and equally as often, he uses 'information dump'.

However, it is still a good book. So, if 'blame' is the word, who do I 'blame'? Nobody, because it is a good and well written book.

As regards the comment about the 'slush pile', well it is true I don't have a book published as yet, although one, and I must say thanks to YWO, is now on an editor's desk, (so past the slush pile), and I do have hopes for it.

I have also written, sold, had produced and broadcast 8 plays for BBC TV.

So, in the context of YWO I don't feel I need to make excuses.

And I am conscious of the fact that some of us have had books published, and, after all the congratulations and back slapping, sales have been somewhere between poor and invisible, and I understand that could just as well happen to me.

Your writing ability, Malcolm, is ill served by your desire to make things 'personal'.


Read Orwell's Politics and the English Language, and you'll find him advising active voice instead of passive, short words instead of long ones. He also advises cutting any word that isn't absolutely necessary. Are these not the same "rules" you're railing against?

Go ahead and make your own rules. Reinvent the wheel, if you want to.

This is why reviewing others is such an enlightening activity, because when they're other people's adverbs and other people's passive voice, it's easier to see that they are a bad idea. I find when I'm editing someone's work, I tend to cut most of the adverbs, not BECAUSE they're adverbs, but because they're unnecessary words mucking up the flow of the writing. I don't set out to eliminate adverbs and adjectives, but they tend to be the superfluous words--not as essential as nouns and verbs.

I'm willing to concede that there are many beginners on this site who cling to the only "rules" they know. Having said that, there's a difference between a reviewer who says, "You're not supposed to use so many adverbs" (applying the rule in a general way) and a reviewer who says, "Your adverbs are weighing down your sentences" (meaning your writing, in this piece, specifically, suffers from superfluous words.) The latter may appear to be applying the "rules," but they are probably right.

I haven't attended a creative writing program. Have you? On what do you base your assumption that people who have graduated from such programs are rigidly applying these beginners' "rules" to everything they read? Don't you think it's more likely that they define "good writing" as anything that holds their attention? It seems to me that whenever I read agents on the subject of common mistakes, they're not saying, "Don't break the rules because the rules are inviolable." They're saying certain mistakes make for a bad reading experience, and a lot of those mistakes happen to be violations of the "rules."

What I'm trying to say is that the "rules" have evolved out of the practical experience and the accumulated wisdom of the writers who have gone before us. They're not as rigid as some beginners believe they are, but they're not entirely arbitrary, either.

PaulE has put it very well--the "rules" are merely guidelines--and Joe90 is right that you have to know what the rules are before you can break them (I had an English teacher who taught us the same thing.) Learning the "rules" of writing is like learning the rules of grammar. Of course you can break them, and to great effect, but a sophisticated reader can tell the difference between when you've broken the rules on purpose and when you've broken the rules because you just don't know any better. The difference is: one works and the other doesn't.
No stars. No charts. Just crits.
awrigley
 07 Oct 2011, 18:32 #131844 Reply To Post
Quote: Malcolm, Wednesday, 5 Oct 2011 21:14
Quote: DaiBach, Wednesday, 5 Oct 2011 08:19


And yet, her books still sell. And I am suggesting that many of the people who read/glance at the first pages of the 'slush' pile ask themselves, 'Does this obey the rules?' and if it doesn't they reject it. In that sense it will never get as far as an editor, will it?


And so, I am extremely doubtful of rules being made up at all for writing, and look upon most them with a profound cynicism.



And I am suggesting that the people who read/glance at the first pages of the slush pile ask themselves, "Do I want to keep reading?"

Who do you suppose made up the "rules," and for what purpose? When you read, do you not find that misplaced backstory slows the story, too many adverbs and adjectives weigh down the sentences, too much tell robs the reader of feeling involved? These are basics, having nothing to do with trends and fashion but with making the writing readable and keeping the reader involved. Should we ignore the advice of Stephen King, Kurt Vonnegut, George Orwell and other experienced authors who clearly know how to manage an audience?

Of course every author has to find his own voice and write in his own style, but whenever I hear someone express contempt for the "rules," I suspect that person is making excuses for why he can't get past the slush pile.

You can break all the rules you want, but don't blame the reader when it doesn't work.



I have no time for the rules, and make no bones about it, yet I am well past the slush pile.

So I guess you're just wrong.

I sent the agent two books. One that takes account of the YWO rules as drubbed into me, one that doesn't.

The agent's response:

"You are the writer and must trust your own instincts first and foremost. If you feel this is the story to pursue, then you must do so. For my part, I think that – while the quality of any given paragraph is great – you would do yourself a greater service by pursuing something different"

She was talking about the book that obeyed the rules. She is keen on the other one, the one that breaks every bloody rule there is.

So boo.
Memory... What was that?
rosefitzrobert
 23 Nov 2011, 10:14 #135522 Reply To Post
I am unfamiliar with any of the rules being referred to on this thread. I made up my own rules. I'm normally not big on rules of any kind, anywhere. Most are unnecessary or fail to apply in all the situations to which they are mindlessly applied. So I only have a few, which seems like plenty, because it's the execution that's a bitch:

1)I'm writing to communicate ideas to the reader
2) A person trying to communicate has to take responsibility to make the communication meaningful to the person(s) addressed
3) If what I've written doesn't accomplish that goal, I have to change it until it does, because no one will read something which does not mean anything to them.

I think Jane Austen follows all my rules, and that's why people still read her books.
Page < 1 2 3 4 5 Last : 6 Add To My Topic Watch List Start New Topic Reply To Topic
Server Time: 21 May 2013, 18:03

Powered by Zarr Forums

5 Database Read(s) - 0.250 seconds

 

Adverts provided by Google and not endorsed by YouWriteOn.com.