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Andrew A
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Quote: NickPoole, Saturday, 14 Apr 2012 22:33"Slating someone is not constructive. No matter how difficult the piece, you can always help in some way, even if it’s simply correcting the spelling and just because someone is struggling now, does not mean they cannot succeed in the future." I think this is where Andrew A gives the game away. Of course slating someone in a review is not constructive. This is where the confusion arises...a negative review of a piece of work IS NOT THE SAME as slating the author. Obviously Andrew A thinks they are one and the same. If somebody doesn't like a piece of writing...don't take it personally. You pedantic prat!
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demolinero
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Quote: Andrew A, Saturday, 14 Apr 2012 23:12Quote: NickPoole, Saturday, 14 Apr 2012 22:33"Slating someone is not constructive. No matter how difficult the piece, you can always help in some way, even if it’s simply correcting the spelling and just because someone is struggling now, does not mean they cannot succeed in the future." I think this is where Andrew A gives the game away. Of course slating someone in a review is not constructive. This is where the confusion arises...a negative review of a piece of work IS NOT THE SAME as slating the author. Obviously Andrew A thinks they are one and the same. If somebody doesn't like a piece of writing...don't take it personally. You pedantic prat! But absolutely correct in this instance!
This post was last edited by demolinero, 15 Apr 2012, 06:06
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loopy loo
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Oh dear. It's a bit early in the morning for this but surely there is difference between a negative review and bring rude to someone.
This post was last edited by loopy loo, 15 Apr 2012, 06:32
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PERRY
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I think Andrew was using irony there. Again, there is this assumption that Soto only read 200 words. Here's the direct quote:
"I found reading your pages difficult. It was not the storyline that disappointed me becauseI had no idea about storyline after having read only 200 words."
While you could assume that only 200 words were read in entirety, there is nothing here which stipulates that Soto did NOT go on and read the rest and just find it beyond reviewing for him/her.
What are we calling "slating" here? Would comments that the piece was nigh illiterate, ill-informed and lazy writing be covered by the all seeing, all knowing ones?
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Malcolm
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Quote: Andrew A, Saturday, 14 Apr 2012 19:42Does Disparaging Authors stifle the creative process? I wonder how many of those members who post atrocious reviews take note of comments made on the message boards. They rarely reply to defend their point of view, and I have noticed that many do not post work of their own. Over the years, I have benefited from the experience and candour of other members. Their help has been invaluable, and in many cases, I have heeded their opinions. One man’s meat is another man poison and none of us will agree with every review, but that is all part of the fun. However, for every hundred wonderful, constructive and supportive members, there is probably one or two who see YWO as a vehicle for their own ego or a way of venting their spleen on those they will never meet. If a reviewer denigrates a posting or insults the author, they should expect a disparaging reply. Soto admitted he had read only 200 words of Fleb’s piece. If it was not a literacy problem then it was a cynical move to accrue a credit, and he cheated on the reading test. The actions of a cad and bounder don’t you know, flogging is too good for him! Sorry, I suddenly came all over Edwardian. Now we have poor Kasia embarrassed about ‘her knee jerk reaction’ to receiving 8 1’s. I would have been apoplectic, but then I’m the sensitive type. Slating someone is not constructive. No matter how difficult the piece, you can always help in some way, even if it’s simply correcting the spelling and just because someone is struggling now, does not mean they cannot succeed in the future. Without disparaging your own literacy skills, I would urge you to read Soto's review again. There's nothing mean-spirited or cynical about it, nor does he appear to derive pleasure from "slating" the author. His statement that he became more dejected as he read on (which supports Perry’s contention that he DID read on) indicates to me that a) contrary to people’s assumptions, he probably WASN'T having a bad day until he got this assignment, and b) having taken the assignment, he probably felt duty-bound to complete it. He clearly states that he’s offering the best help he can, and he certainly doesn’t indicate any belief that author cannot succeed in the future--in fact, he wishes her success with her revisions. You say he could have at least helped the author with the mechanics; I say that’s more than an author can expect. We are reviewers, not proofreaders or editors. I taught English for thirty years, and I didn’t come here to take it up again. As for Kasia, no doubt she WAS apoplectic when she received eight 1s, but she is mature enough to realize that a knee-jerk reaction is just as unseemly in an author as it is in her reviewer. Allow me to draw your attention to another Thank You she’s recently posted. This is a writer who has her priorities straight, one who recognizes that a critical review can be more valuable than a flattering one, because the story she’s writing is more important to her than having her ego stroked. She accepts that her opening chapters have weaknesses and she’s willing to do a lot of work to improve them. Most importantly, she accepts responsibility for utilizing the reviewer’s input—she’s not sitting around waiting for him to fix it for her. The reviewer’s job is to tell you what he thinks of the story. If he doesn’t like it, that’s not his fault. It may or may not be your fault, as the author, but that’s for you to determine when you’ve taken some time to put the review into perspective. Going on the Thank You forum and encouraging others to berate and discredit the reviewer doesn’t make your story any better, and as karenmilner points out, it may make other writers reluctant to review your work. We all know there’s a difference between a critical review and a nasty one, although it may be hard for the author initially to distinguish which he is dealing with—all the more reason to sit with it a day or so before responding. I’m talking here about critical reviews, but even a nasty review is not an atrocity. If your creativity is too fragile to withstand bad reviews, then maybe writing isn’t for you. There’s no shame in it—lots of people who quit writing go on to excel in other art forms. Or maybe you should just refrain from showing your work and plan to publish posthumously.
This post was last edited by Malcolm, 15 Apr 2012, 09:50
No stars. No charts. Just crits.
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Andrew A
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Quote: Malcolm, Sunday, 15 Apr 2012 09:48Quote: Andrew A, Saturday, 14 Apr 2012 19:42Does Disparaging Authors stifle the creative process? I wonder how many of those members who post atrocious reviews take note of comments made on the message boards. They rarely reply to defend their point of view, and I have noticed that many do not post work of their own. Over the years, I have benefited from the experience and candour of other members. Their help has been invaluable, and in many cases, I have heeded their opinions. One man’s meat is another man poison and none of us will agree with every review, but that is all part of the fun. However, for every hundred wonderful, constructive and supportive members, there is probably one or two who see YWO as a vehicle for their own ego or a way of venting their spleen on those they will never meet. If a reviewer denigrates a posting or insults the author, they should expect a disparaging reply. Soto admitted he had read only 200 words of Fleb’s piece. If it was not a literacy problem then it was a cynical move to accrue a credit, and he cheated on the reading test. The actions of a cad and bounder don’t you know, flogging is too good for him! Sorry, I suddenly came all over Edwardian. Now we have poor Kasia embarrassed about ‘her knee jerk reaction’ to receiving 8 1’s. I would have been apoplectic, but then I’m the sensitive type. Slating someone is not constructive. No matter how difficult the piece, you can always help in some way, even if it’s simply correcting the spelling and just because someone is struggling now, does not mean they cannot succeed in the future. Without disparaging your own literacy skills, I would urge you to read Soto's review again. There's nothing mean-spirited or cynical about it, nor does he appear to derive pleasure from "slating" the author. His statement that he became more dejected as he read on (which supports Perry’s contention that he DID read on) indicates to me that a) contrary to people’s assumptions, he probably WASN'T having a bad day until he got this assignment, and b) having taken the assignment, he probably felt duty-bound to complete it. He clearly states that he’s offering the best help he can, and he certainly doesn’t indicate any belief that author cannot succeed in the future--in fact, he wishes her success with her revisions. You say he could have at least helped the author with the mechanics; I say that’s more than an author can expect. We are reviewers, not proofreaders or editors. I taught English for thirty years, and I didn’t come here to take it up again. As for Kasia, no doubt she WAS apoplectic when she received eight 1s, but she is mature enough to realize that a knee-jerk reaction is just as unseemly in an author as it is in her reviewer. Allow me to draw your attention to another Thank You she’s recently posted. This is a writer who has her priorities straight, one who recognizes that a critical review can be more valuable than a flattering one, because the story she’s writing is more important to her than having her ego stroked. She accepts that her opening chapters have weaknesses and she’s willing to do a lot of work to improve them. Most importantly, she accepts responsibility for utilizing the reviewer’s input—she’s not sitting around waiting for him to fix it for her. The reviewer’s job is to tell you what he thinks of the story. If he doesn’t like it, that’s not his fault. It may or may not be your fault, as the author, but that’s for you to determine when you’ve taken some time to put the review into perspective. Going on the Thank You forum and encouraging others to berate and discredit the reviewer doesn’t make your story any better, and as karenmilner points out, it may make other writers reluctant to review your work. We all know there’s a difference between a critical review and a nasty one, although it may be hard for the author initially to distinguish which he is dealing with—all the more reason to sit with it a day or so before responding. I’m talking here about critical reviews, but even a nasty review is not an atrocity. If your creativity is too fragile to withstand bad reviews, then maybe writing isn’t for you. There’s no shame in it—lots of people who quit writing go on to excel in other art forms. Or maybe you should just refrain from showing your work and plan to publish posthumously. Yeah, your right Malcolm, it’s not important to either the reader or the author. It’s that moment of shock when the author realises they have failed to reach the wider audience. Still, without this thread and others like it, the site would have rusted over, I know it’s the hols but there is more activity on the Titanic.
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Malcolm
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Quote: Andrew A, Sunday, 15 Apr 2012 10:29Yeah, your right Malcolm, it’s not important to either the reader or the author. It’s that moment of shock when the author realises they have failed to reach the wider audience. Still, without this thread and others like it, the site would have rusted over, I know it’s the hols but there is more activity on the Titanic. I just hate to see writers and reviewers set up as adversaries, as if they were two separate groups of people. Except for some of the no-work-posted snipers, the writers and reviewers are all the same people.
No stars. No charts. Just crits.
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Andrew A
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I wholeheartedly agree Malcolm, but we do get the occasional rouge reviewer who does not post any work, so they cannot be classed as a ‘writer’. Anyway, it’s time to move on to more important things. Not only did my horse fail to finish, it died! 
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krademacher
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There is a process of complaint available in some road racing organizations that might be worth emulating on YWO. It essentially goes like this: If you suspect a competitor of cheating (shaving cylinder heads, bigger cam than rules allow, etc), you can file a complaint with the governing body of the race. In order to do so, however, you must put up collateral. Most orgs require a 100 to 500 dollar deposit. The competitor is then forced to do an appropriate tear down for official inspection. If they refuse, they are disqualified from competition. If the initial complaint is confirmed, they are disqualified. In either case, the initial complainer gets their deposit back. If the inspection reveals that the complaint was unfounded, not only does the complainer lose their deposit (It's given to the subject of the complaint), they also get suspended from the organization for between a month to a year. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with something in a writing environment, I think. Your thoughts?
Karl Rademacher, Certified Fraud Examiner, EnCE Board Chair, Silver Pen Writers AssociationManaging Editor, Silver Blade MagazinePresident, Midwest Chapter, High Tech Crimes Investigation Association
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Tyler Wills
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Quote: krademacher, Sunday, 15 Apr 2012 18:23There is a process of complaint available in some road racing organizations that might be worth emulating on YWO. It essentially goes like this: If you suspect a competitor of cheating (shaving cylinder heads, bigger cam than rules allow, etc), you can file a complaint with the governing body of the race. In order to do so, however, you must put up collateral. Most orgs require a 100 to 500 dollar deposit. The competitor is then forced to do an appropriate tear down for official inspection. If they refuse, they are disqualified from competition. If the initial complaint is confirmed, they are disqualified. In either case, the initial complainer gets their deposit back. If the inspection reveals that the complaint was unfounded, not only does the complainer lose their deposit (It's given to the subject of the complaint), they also get suspended from the organization for between a month to a year. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with something in a writing environment, I think. Your thoughts? Please see - Quote: karen milner, Sunday, 15 Apr 2012 12:26 Quote: Tyler Wills, Sunday, 15 Apr 2012 12:10 As I feel partly responsible for this Taurus on going debate and while I agree with most of the points discussed on the subject of Reviews and Reviewers, may I express my surprise at the past comment; that should an author openly slate what in his opinion is a worthless contribution, then he/she can expect to have his work rejected by other likely Reviewers. If this is the case then it is very unfortunate, but I would therefore prefer this - nothing at all, than to have someone waste my, their, and the excellent systems time, by providing me with useless rubbish. Not sure if you're referring to my comment, Tyler. But if so, it is true that if I see enough 'no thank yous' from the same author I do tend to skip their work. As I said on an other thread, I prefer not to waste my time on people who can't take criticism and spend their time whinging on the MB rather than honing their craft. Not sure if you are referring to my first and only complaint regarding a useless critique which was copied and highlighted by another YWO member to illustrate its worthlessness, but if you are going to be picky about which review you deign to review then I still feel that that is rather unfortunate. Almost as bad as rejecting every likely review picked up until one arrives at the name of Karen Milner! This post was last edited by Tyler Wills, Today, 18:34
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Does Supporting Authors Mean Disparaging Reviewers?
14 Apr 2012, 23:12
