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A question about pronouns
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kazmojazz
 11 Mar 2012, 15:43 #145437 Reply To Post
Quote: rosalindwinter, Sunday, 11 Mar 2012 15:14

Someone who contantly ignores this non-rule is Hilary Mantell, and writers don't come much better. In "Wolf Hall" she even does this to the point of ambiguity at times - she almost always refers to her main character as "he" rather than by name, to the point where I had to keep re-reading whole paragraphs because I'd only just realised that "he" wasn't Cromwell but someone else. Still a brilliant book, though.


I actually found that really annoying in Wolf Hall and gave up half way through because I was spending so much time working out who 'he' was. I know others who gave up for the same reason. Perhaps I should give it another go.

She did take using pronouns to a whole new level. Wonder if she'd have got away with that as a new writer.

rosalindwinter
 11 Mar 2012, 16:23 #145438 Reply To Post
Glad it wasn't just me that found it difficult!
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Scias te fortasse Romanum esse si ... discrimen apud te recentissimum tumultus fuerit servilis (Henricus Barbatus)
Mostar
 11 Mar 2012, 17:12 #145440 Reply To Post
Thanks - interesting and helpful!

*****

kazmojazz
 11 Mar 2012, 21:03 #145456 Reply To Post
Quote: rosalindwinter, Sunday, 11 Mar 2012 16:23
Glad it wasn't just me that found it difficult!


Would you say it was worth perservering, Rosalind? Cromwell fascinates me and altthough that whole era has rather been done to death, I still love it. Wasn't too sure about the present tense either. In some novels, I don't even notice it but in this one, it felt wrong somehow.
Andrew A
 18 Mar 2012, 11:44 #145910 Reply To Post
I am not sure what the problem is here Mostar. The pronouns of he, she, they, you etc are used throughout sentences, clauses and paragraphs, as part of the narrative voice, in order to make your sentences less cumbersome and less repetitive.

Nouns, in relation to the person, are used to personalise the narrative, to build the relationship between the reader and characters and to identify them to the reader. In dialogue, people rarely use each other’s names, unless they are emphasising a point, calling someone’s attention, or remonstrating with them.

If your writing is precise and structured, the reader will not have a problem identifying which character you are referring too. Even so, it is good practice to remind them from time to time. The rules are – does it sound right, does it make sense and have you successfully conveyed your ideas to the reader.
Mostar
 18 Mar 2012, 17:51 #145917 Reply To Post
Hi Andrew

What made me curious was that I gave my friend a m/s to read. He's been excellent at tidying my material up. One of the things he did was to replace all my pronouns at the beginning of paragraphs to make them personal pronouns.

I didn't think it was necessary (last pronoun referred to and all that) but I was just curious if there was a rule.

I'm not a ruler follower as such, was just curious! I agree with your sentiment entirely!

Cheers
Mo

*****

Joe 90
 21 Mar 2012, 08:47 #146056 Reply To Post
Quote: Mostar, Sunday, 18 Mar 2012 17:51
Hi Andrew

What made me curious was that I gave my friend a m/s to read. He's been excellent at tidying my material up. One of the things he did was to replace all my pronouns at the beginning of paragraphs to make them personal pronouns.

I didn't think it was necessary (last pronoun referred to and all that) but I was just curious if there was a rule.

I'm not a ruler follower as such, was just curious! I agree with your sentiment entirely!

Cheers
Mo


Best thing: read it back aloud. If you find that the pronouns are starting to 'come unstuck', in other words you are finding ambiguity and loss of clarity, then insert the occasional name (or better still characteristic - one of the protagonists might stammer or something like that) to reorient the narrative.
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Mostar
 22 Mar 2012, 16:27 #146182 Reply To Post
Thank you lovely Joe - tis good advice

*****

Joe 90
 25 Mar 2012, 09:04 #146328 Reply To Post
Quote: Mostar, Thursday, 22 Mar 2012 16:27
Thank you lovely Joe - tis good advice


'tis no problem. I note you chose to use my name rather than pronounize me. See? It helps direct the reader's mind. I knew right away who you were talking to.

BW

Joe 90
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rosalindwinter
 26 Mar 2012, 21:00 #146456 Reply To Post
Quote: kazmojazz, Sunday, 11 Mar 2012 21:03
Quote: rosalindwinter, Sunday, 11 Mar 2012 16:23
Glad it wasn't just me that found it difficult!


Would you say it was worth perservering, Rosalind? Cromwell fascinates me and altthough that whole era has rather been done to death, I still love it. Wasn't too sure about the present tense either. In some novels, I don't even notice it but in this one, it felt wrong somehow.


Sorry,I've been away and have only just seen this. Yes, definitely worth persevering.
If you do get to the end, can you tell me why you think HM called the book "Wolf Hall"? Does anyone else know? I realise that Wolf Hall was the residence of the Seymours, but the novel stops before the Seymours really came to prominence, and none of the action actually takes place at Wolf Hall.
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Scias te fortasse Romanum esse si ... discrimen apud te recentissimum tumultus fuerit servilis (Henricus Barbatus)
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